Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to Red, White and Brown, the podcast that discusses the interesting upbringing of Desi American immigrants and what happens when the Eastern culture meets the Western world. I'm Prerak.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Sophia. And today I want us to revisit the topic of Lokia Kahenge, which we spoke about on our first season. But that was four or five years ago now, so I think it's time we discuss this again. But. But this time, Parak, I feel like the world is totally different, and I kind of think the perspective has changed a little bit. Do you still think Desi Americans have this Loki, AKA Hengya, mentality, or do you think that's less a part of the culture now than it was before?
[00:00:43] Speaker A: I definitely think it's still around. I think it's going to be a long time before we can formally get rid of it. But before I even begin, I want to start by defining Lok Yaka Henge, because I know we first talked about it on one of our first few episodes, but it is a term that stands for what will people think? And it's a pretty common term in the Desi vernacular. At its core, the phrase reflects this concern about social judgment, how one's actions, choices, and even life decisions can ultimately be perceived by others, especially communities, relatives, neighbors, society at large. I'm going to play a clip from Hasan Minhaj, who was the first guy to ever define this, that I think summarizes it super well, and he's the one who I think got it into the mainstream.
What will people think?
And I don't know if you guys know this, but every time a brown father says, a star actually falls from the sky, Mom, Dad, I don't want
[00:01:43] Speaker B: to be a doctor.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: No.
So I personally think that this is still an issue, given the extent to which it has been imbued into our culture. But I also do think that individuals both inside and outside our culture are seeing boundaries being broken in a way that was not done before. And As I said, 2020 is the last time we talked about this. It is now 2026, and we are just seeing so many more things, right? South Asians in Politics, which was one of our last episodes. South Asians being imbued in the music industry, the fashion industry, or even, in my case, marrying someone who is not necessarily South Asian. Right? And so there's just so many boundaries being broken, and I think it will continue to happen and in a way that has allowed us to fight against this Lok Yakuhenga culture. I think that's a Step in the right direction. What do you think about this?
[00:02:33] Speaker B: I agree. And I think that Gen Z doesn't have as much of the look Yakanga mentality and I feel like content creation has a lot to do with that. And I don't know if you agree, but I feel like I see so much, so many people now being content creators, just so much more than, you know, when you and I first started, because we started almost 10 years ago. Right. And so it was a totally different landscape then. And now I see so many desi American content creators on the Internet sharing their lives, sharing their thoughts, and I feel like you have to not care what people think about you in order to put yourself out there on the Internet. And so because I'm seeing so many South Asian Gen Z content creators, that tells me that the mindset is shifting and Gen Z at least doesn't seem to care as much what anyone's gonna say.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't quite think of it in that way. So hearing you say that is cool. And I guess you're right, because in 2020 I think Instagram reels was probably not around and I think Tic Tac TikTok was just coming onto the scene. Right. And so that was the first exposure to this like insanely hyper short format of videos. And then we just saw so much more of that and that allowed us to consume way more content than previously. Before. It was always like a long YouTube video you had to watch. And now you can watch like 10, 20 creators in a matter of seconds. And by doing that, I think you're seeing way more stuff. You're seeing people doing things, things that may not be as talked about. And in the process, you're literally breaking these barriers and redefining what you thought is normal. And that, that's something that I personally didn't realize. I just think we're consuming way more content and this, it's normalized things that I feel like were previously not talked about at all.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and that's kind of what I was getting at with. There's just so many more creators nowadays. Right. And, and with that, you see a lot of those creators are South Asian and that's in America, but also even in the subcontinent, like content creation is pretty popular there too, I think. So, you know, more people putting themselves out there and not caring. Lokiyaka Enge. You know, so one thing that this whole discussion kind of reminded me about that I wanted to ask you was whether you ever felt that pressure when you first started on YouTube because I know it was about 10 years ago now, and now you have such a big audience. No one would ever look at you and be like, oh, why is he doing YouTube? Or, you know, no one would talk badly about you because you're quote, unquote, successful. Right. But when you first started, were you worried that people would talk about you?
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. And for context, since many people may not even know, I do have a YouTube channel that I started almost 10 years ago that exclusively just revolves around me talking to the camera camera about my journey in medicine. And initially this started as a way for me to share studying habits, and now it's just a way for me to share a lot of what I'm learning in residency. I think putting yourself out there is always challenging, and I think it depends on your personality and what you grew up with in terms of what you're comfortable with. I was always a bit more on the reserve side, but putting myself out there was something that I thought would daunt me. And eventually, as I started creating videos, I realized the difference between going from 0 to 1 is much larger than the marginal original jump from 1 to 2. So creating that first video was super challenging. And obviously I was like, I don't know what people will think. I'm never going to tell anyone about this. But then as I created that first video, I was like, oh, that wasn't so bad. And guess what? Only two people watched it. Like, it's not that big of a deal. And so then I created the second one and the third one. And as I created more and more, I felt more comfortable in my shoes.
However, I still find it hard to openly publicize that I'm even on YouTube. It's not something I'm openly sharing all the time. And it's definitely something I find challenging to even bring up because it's this extra Persona. With that being said, I feel more comfortable in my shoes now. But I wonder what your experience was like because you have a different type of audience and a different medium because you're a bit more on Instagram. How have you started seeing that shift? And did you feel nervous when you were start when you first were posting?
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Well, I feel similarly to you now in that I don't actively share it with anyone at work because, yeah, there is some judgment that comes with it still. Right. And I post a lot of fashion content which can be, I think, interpreted as frivolous or superficial. And so, you know, yeah, I don't really share it too much with my work life, but I think looking Back when I first started, I was a little worried not just about the desi community, right. But even, even like non desi people around me, I was kind of like, yeah, people are going to talk about me. And I'm sure they did. You know, I don't know exactly what they said. I don't know. I don't think that much of it made its way back to me, but it did a little bit. Like, I know people spoke about it and I felt self conscious at the time, but I really was just like, okay, I just have to stomach this discomfort and go for it because this is something I want to do. And then over time, that lokiakaenge feeling went away and I stopped caring.
But when it comes to my parents, I will say, even though I post a lot of fashion content, I mean, I don't really post in any clothes that are revealing or anything like that, but if I had posted any outfits and revealing clothing, my parents definitely would have had a problem with it back then when I started. And honestly, even now, Even though I'm 30 and I'm married, they would still, you know, have something to say about it if I was wearing anything super scandalous on the Internet.
So there is still some of that Lok Yakuhenge mentality. And in everything that I do, I do think it reflects on my family too. Right. So I'm always a little bit conscious of that, which I don't know if that's a bad thing, but you know, there is a little bit of that mentality still there. How did your family feel about you starting on YouTube?
[00:08:42] Speaker A: I think it's a similar thing. I think your perception of your family is an indirect reflection of the values you are brought up with. Right. So the fact that you think about your family when you're posting is just a sign that you, you're not just you. It's like you always have a piece of your family with you and whether that means you're going to need to get an insight into like, okay, how do you feel about this? How can we work to post something that I feel comfortable with and I also know my family may feel comfortable with. I think that is a beautiful thing that is novel about the desi experience because we always have that in the back of our heads. Whereas in America sometimes it's this hyper independent society where you're like, oh, I'm just going to post this and I'm not necessarily as caring about what my parents might think. And I think for us it's not necessarily always that. For Me, I. I always thought my parents might be against it. And I also did the same thing that you did, which is like, I would basically record something and then I would see what does this look like if my dad is watching it? Or what does this look like if my mom is watching this? And can I even say this about myself? If. And like, what would my family think if they found out I'm making this at like 3am And I realized eventually that one, no one really cared. And even though I was making it out to be a big deal in my head, as long as I was staying true to who I was and what my family values were, for the most part, as you said, like, if I was posting something in revealing clothing or if I was saying something that clearly did not represent the values that my parents gave me, I think I myself would have an issue with that. But on the most part, if I was posting something, I realized, like, my parents didn't really care.
I think, of course, you and I hold ourselves already to a relatively high standard in putting out pretty verified factual information, whether it's about fashion or even about medicine.
But I realized, like, if I'm goofy, that's okay, or if I made a mistake, that's okay. And I think most importantly, what I realized is my family actually liked seeing me happy. When I was making these videos. They were like, oh, it's cute. Like, it's nice that you want to do this. It seems like you're happy doing this. And I'm happy that you're happy. Not so much. I'm happy you're making videos. I'm happy that you're happy because this is something you like doing, so you should continue doing it. I don't know if you have something similar in terms of like, the encouragement you got or if you're. It was a little bit more like, indifferent, but you just felt more empowered to do it because you, you just really like doing it. And what advice you might have for someone who's looking to start something, who may feel ambivalent about it because they want to, but they're not sure how it might be perceived by their family.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Well, I kind of agree with you. I do think my parents didn't give me as much pushback as I expected when I started. And now I feel like my mom is my biggest fan and my dad too. He's just not on Instagram, but he's definitely not watching fashion videos. But my mom certainly is. And I agree with you. I think realizing that no one is micro analyzing you that hard is key, right? Everyone's just worried about their own self. No one really cares that much about you. And that's what I tell myself in order to make peace with it. If I put something out that's not perfect, like, just realizing no one really cares that much about me, and then I think if anyone wants to start, the key thing is just start.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Right?
[00:11:52] Speaker B: That's the hardest part. That's why Nike's motto is just do it. It's because once you do it, you're able to build on it and you're able to do more from there. But there's no amount of, like, planning and prepping that can replace action.
So I think just do it. And then the other thing is, the first 10 videos you make might not be great, right? But in order to make your hundredth video that is great, you have to make the first 99 and build up that skill. That's just the reality. Like, there's no other way to get good without doing it.
So just do it. And then, honestly, I feel like you and me with this podcast, we kind of are doing that right now. Right? Like, this is what, maybe, like, our 30th episode. We're not that good yet. No, we're gonna just keep doing it, and one day we'll get good. And that's just the reality. Like, we're in it now, and, you know, the only way out is through.
So that's my thought.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: I think you're so right. And I think the bigger thing that you're alluding to is this aspect of going from 0 to 1 is so much harder than going from 1 to 2 and 99 to 100. Right. Like, the hundredth time we do this episode, we feel way more comfortable. And stuff we're doing today was, like, so daunting to us. The first time we started, I remember we literally went to the library to check out a microphone, and we had no idea how to do that for our first episode.
And so it's always hard to get started. But when you do get started and you realize there's things that improve and you start putting out stuff you can be proud of, I think even your community will back you, and they'll be like, wow, that's really cool stuff. Sophia has a fashion mind, and Preak has this YouTube mind.
So, Sophia, I'm curious. I think the other thing that's very implicit in our conversation, not just you doing fashion and me doing education, but also you're a female and I'm a male, and I think that has also a very different experience with the whole Lok Yaka hanging thing.
My two cents about this is that I think sexism still has a pretty big root in Desi culture. And it's not necessarily that everyone is sexist, but just that the expectations are very ingrained and different between what is expected of a male and what is expected of a female. And majority of these expectations, at least from my perspective, feel much harder on the women than on the men. And I say this anecdotally, obviously, I never had the experience of being a South Asian woman, but I did have a sister, and I did get to see a little bit firsthand about how double standards existed. And her number one complaint growing up was, you know, how come I can't be with my friends at this time? And, you know, pre Rack was always able to go out and how come he's able to do this and I'm not able to do this?
So there was always this aspect of what was expected of you as a Indian daughter and what was expected of you as an Indian son and what you should do.
And I think there's definitely expectations for men, too. So I don't think, you know, men are entirely cured of this, but I do think there's a bit more of a positive bias for men, right? Like they're expected to be like the head of the household, they're expected to be a bit more authoritarian, whereas women, at least, were anecdotally supposed to be a bit more submissive. And I think this has implications for the Loki Akhenge, because now if you're a female trying to do something in a. In a space that's predominantly male, it's almost seen as like, oh, you shouldn't be doing that. How did you. Did you struggle with this growing up? And how has it faced. Or how has it impacted you into who you are now?
[00:15:33] Speaker B: I mean, I agree with you. I do think that there's always more pressure on girls. I think, first off, girls are just overall policed a lot more than boys, right? Whether it's their clothing choices, their appearance and weight, you know, things like that. Just overall, this expectation to be a quote, unquote, good girl, you know, it's
[00:15:54] Speaker A: because I think the people doing the policing have historically also been men, right? So these standards are literally have been imposed upon women. And it's very rare to see the opposite, which is women policing men, because it just hasn't historically ever been that way.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Maybe I should police you a little bit more on this podcast in order to yeah. You know, even. Even the playing field, I'm going to start policing you.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm fine with that.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: But I think I relate to your sister. You know, even though I'm the older sister, I'm seven years older than my brother. And when I look at him and the life that he lives, he truly has different parents than I had. Part of it is just the big age difference, and then part of it is that he's a boy. Right. And so they are so much more chill with him than they were with me.
And then secondly, there's also this challenge with being a South Asian female in America where there's still the traditional South Asian expectations of kind of traditional values. And pressure to get married comes at a younger age for females and males. But then there's also like this career expectation that I think is more prevalent here than back in the subcontinent.
And obviously I know that women in India and Pakistan and Bangladesh are educated and they work. And of course there's financial pressure back in the subcontinent as well. Right. Like, of course there's a financial benefit to being in a two income household. And so it's really common for women in the subcontinent to work, but it is also much more common for women in the subcontinent to not work and to be a housewife. Right. Whereas in the US that's really not much of an option unless either you're really, really wealthy or, you know, maybe you're just okay not having much of a disposable income. And, you know, it's much less common for women here to be a housewife. And so you kind of have the worst of both worlds here as a female, I gotta say.
Yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: You're expected to not only work, but also be held to these other standards that are very, very double standardy. I will, I will say that I think we're gonna have definitely a future episode, I think, in general about gender disparities. I think that would be very fascinating.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: And, and I don't mean to say that women who are housewives aren't working, because that is still work.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: But the thing is, in the US I feel like a lot of women will have their career, they'll work outside the home, and then they come and they work inside the home too. You know, like they're still doing the majority of domestic labor in addition to being breadwinners. So it's like the worst of all three worlds, actually. So.
Great.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Love that for you.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. But I have something that I'm curious about as well, which Is how is this whole Lokia Kahenge thing going to change in regards to careers? Since, you know, AI is changing everything now. And I feel like a lot of jobs that people consider prestigious now, like tech jobs, are really going to be shaken up by AI if they're not already.
So do you think that our community's opinions on different careers are changing at all? Do you feel that yet or not quite.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: I personally don't feel it, but I think it's also the bias of us being in medicine where I'm kind of shielded because we don't follow normal career paths. Right, Sophia? Like, we're just so isolated from what a normal career is. Like we're 30 now, 31, and barely just started working big boy jobs. And so I personally don't see that yet. But I also think in general, even though AI is relatively new to the scene, it's just going to take a very long time for us to adapt to what careers are going to be changed. I think it's going to be pretty hard for me to see they see America and say that you should not become a doctor, engineer or lawyer because it's going to get replaced by AI. Historically, I just don't see that happening, that statement ever being said. But also just the fact that those careers have this aspect of either prestige or even if AI could do that job, it's not that, oh, you're going to be making less money, because I think prestige in the DESI community hasn't always been about just money. There's also this, oh, you're doing a meaningful job because of X, Y and Z.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Totally agree.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Because of that. Even if AI could be a doctor, I don't think there's going to be a point at which a DESI person would be like, oh yeah, don't be a doctor, because an AI can do that. But with that being said, I do think there's going to be other jobs that historically are going to be harder to replicate that may paradoxically get more credence. Like, hey, wow, like you, if you're a plumber or a mechanic, like, those are things that an AI thing cannot do. And if, if that means that you are now going to be paid more, maybe in certain way it is seen as a bit more prestigious. Again, I don't even agree with this whole concept, but I do think there's going to be this aspect where we think about, can this be done and does it impact your bottom line and what value are you bringing in? That value is ultimately going to be seen as more prestige long term, I think the case can be made that at the bottom line, salary is just one component of it. And I think AI is ultimately going to affect salary for certain jobs that are replaceable versus not. But I do think there's other aspects to prestige that the Lok Yakuhenge has directly imbued within it that AI might not be touching, at least for years.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: So I do predict that trade professions that can't be replaced by AI will gain respect compared to what they previously held.
You know, like, I do think a job as an electrician is respectable and it's less likely to be replaced by technology.
And in fact, that's a job where technology can help the people who are doing that job. And, you know, technology can help people who are working with their hands more than fully replace them right now, I think so. I do think just given the state of the economy, some of these trade professions will gain respect and we will be forced to recognize, I think, the important work that blue collar jobs hold and the value that blue collar workers bring to society. Right. It's undeniable. And we haven't given a lot of those careers enough respect, I think, up
[00:22:15] Speaker A: until this point, yeah, 100%. Plumbers, cleaners, I mean, all of these things are integral parts of our society. And I think the interesting part will be to see, as I said, how and when the changes of AI affect these jobs, their wages, and ultimately our perception of like, oh my God, this is something that I need extra help with.
Since we've essentially now broken down every nuance of the term Lok Yakuhenge, I think the last thing I want to discuss with you is what does the key to breaking free of this? Is there a key? I have, I think, implicitly convinced myself we as a community, as a desi community may not ever get rid of the Loki, AKA Henge sentiment, but we can break ourselves free of it because we can't control others. Right? So they may always be sticking to this, oh, lokiya ka henge. But we can control ourselves and we can try our best to break free of it. So what things would you recommend to someone to get them out of the cycle? And that someone could be someone like me, it could be yourself. What tips would you give?
[00:23:21] Speaker B: I think first, I agree that it'll be tough to break out of it fully because we have such a communal based society. Like it's the opposite of an individualistic society. And so we are always going to care, I think, what other people think. But I think in terms of Trying to break free from that trap.
I think the. The main thing is to build your confidence by kind of racking up achievements, right? I don't think you can build confidence by giving yourself a pep talk or something like that. I think the only way to really build confidence is to prove to yourself that you can do whatever it is you said you would do, right? Whether that's exercising every day or waking up early or whatever else. I do think you have to build that confidence by taking action.
And then once you accomplish enough of the things that you want to achieve, you start to care less what other people think because you kind of have that innate confidence that you can handle things and you can get things done.
So I don't know if that fully answers the question, but that would be my biggest tip on how to break free from, from the Lok yakagenge, you know, trap.
What do you think?
[00:24:40] Speaker A: I think credentialings are so important because people all it takes. And the funny part is it's so funny how quickly the waves turn, right? Like the person who ended up being an actor who then finally got into a movie and now suddenly they're like, oh my God, like, that's amazing. You're so amazing. You're so amazing. And so the credentialing can help to show that you truly do care. For me, I think the other thing is focus on what brings you joy and pay the bills. And I think as you start, because I will be the first to admit, I think I can easily say, like, oh, people should just do what they want to do and like, not worry about what other people think. But in reality, you have bills to pay, you have a family, you might have pets, you have all of these things. So you clearly have to do something that allows you to pay the bills and be a normal human. But after that, all the extra is gravy. And so you should be spending that extra time doing what you want and what brings you joy. And your definition of joy could be working a normal 8 to 5 blue collar job so that you can come home and hang out with your kids, great. It could also be that you want to be a YouTuber or a TikToker, great.
But if you have something that makes you pay your bills and then you do your extra job as making content creation and build that up, I think that will ultimately allow you to break free of this perception because you are now optimizing for things that bring you joy and not staying confined to whatever it is that people think you should be doing. And as you continue to do this and you have your finances taken care of and now you're just optimizing for things that bring you joy, even if those are non conventional, unconventional things. I think no one will fault you for that. And more importantly, you won't fault yourself because you'll be able to kind of make all your ends meet. And I think that ultimately helps you take, take yourself out of the rat race. Because who cares if you're not doing something that society deems is worth doing, as long as you're able to do all of the things that are important for your family and then what bring you joy? I think that's ultimately the most important thing.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. I think that's a great note to end on.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: Yes. So we will see you guys next week. Thank you so much for listening. Continue to subscribe to us if you can, on Spotify or wherever you're getting this. And if you have any ideas for future episodes, let us know in the comments or even on our Instagram or YouTube. We will see you guys in the next one.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Bye.
